[f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

Wed Nov 1 19:32:48 PST 2006

Steve,
  pushing the nose over will in fact slow the sink down.  You are behind the lift curve and nose higher will just sink faster.
  Tom

steve statkus <sstatkus at cinci.rr.com> wrote:
          Tony,

  Understand the concept of the nose pitching up, but I can't sense this when going from 1200 to about 1500 rpm.  And close to the ground with the tail settling is not a place to push  the nose down.....even though I agree it stops the tail settling but doesn't help vertical speed at touchdown.  As soon as the weather clears I'm out to the airport to study this situation.  I'll report more of my observations.

  Steve 
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Markl 
  To: aeronca at westmont.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 7:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

  Dear Steve
  Remember that the addition of power will cause a pitchup which the pilot would have to prevent if he did not with to lose more airspeed.  To me the tail settling means I want more speed and I would lower the nose instead
  Fly frequently and often,
Tony Markl
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: steve statkus 
  To: aeronca at westmont.edu 
  Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 7:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

  Tony,

  My Chief loves 60 in the pattern, trim all the way back 1500 rpm and the wing in level.  It just sits there.  I love it.  The thing that bothers me about my posting is the tail settleing in ground effect.  I think that if the tail was settleing as I came across the numbers and I pushed up the power a bit I'd find myself on the back side of the power curve which as I think about it is probably what I was expericing.  If I come in at 65-70 I might be on the front side.  Hmmmmmmmmm.  Just seems odd to attempt a landing at the same speed I fly downwind.  I think I just figured it out.  Next step is to get out to the airport and try some landings  in the 50-70 mph range and see what is happening back around the tail area.
  I appreciate your input.
  Thanks
  Steve and Lila the 46 11AC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Markl 
  To: aeronca at westmont.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 5:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

  Don't know much about airspeeds - I just fly the wing parallel to the horizon.  At cruise.  On approach. For a wheel landing - onto the runway.  Airspeed indicators will all be different but I agree that 60 is slow for a wheel landing.  Consider that wheel landings are really "difficult wind conditions " landings but it takes to long to say that.  JHust OMO
  Regards
Tony Markl
markl at intercom.net
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
(fabric work/ tailwheel training -  taught or done at your location)
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: roger anderson 
  To: aeronca at westmont.edu 
  Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 8:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

  I think 60 is a tad slow for a wheelie in a Chief.  I'm a 65 to 70 down to the runway kinda guy when wheeling on, with it bleeding off as I go through the level attitude trying to have the mains arrive at about that time.  I think with you already a bit on the heavy side, 60 is about a natural point for the speed to bleed down and the tail to sink .  My opinion.  roger
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lloyd Perkins 
  To: aeronca at westmont.edu 
  Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS? Wrong model

  Ok.... there is the problem.....

    ......Steve Statkus  Chief 9510E,.......

  You got the wrong model acft !!! Champs never do that !!

  OK, OK,.... Was the cg at the aft limit when you calculated it ?? When did you weight the acft last  ?? Sounds like you were a bit tail heavy.  

  Lloyd Perkins
Eagle Aviation of Virginia
(540) 847-7340 

    -----Original Message-----
From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of steve statkus
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 3:00 PM
To: aeronca at westmont.edu
Subject: [f-AA] HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS

    Folks,

  Sitting here thinking about flying Knockers and maybe I'm just being a bonehead myself but I have a story that leaves me wondering if I really understand what is happening during the period of time that you cross over the threshold in a glide and prepare to land.  Year before last I flew up to the Big O and as usual landed on 18 R with the dreaded tail wind.  I made my usual Big O arrival in that I fought the bird to a standstill but only after doing the Drunk Farmer J-3 routine.  ( I just gotta fix that right brake.)  Well I decided I had to learn to land that thing or sell it so heading home I tried a careful approach to wheel landing at Watertown to wait for my flying buddy and his Zebra Aphid.  I had 60 mph nailed, trim forward and coasting around the pattern with no force on the controls.  I rolled out on final, 60 and nice flat descent.  I expected to continue down to almost touchdown then add a pinch of power.  At about 10 feet or so I felt the tail start to sink. 
 I checked airspeed and it was bleeding off also.  Pressure on the yoke nose down and some power restored my attitude and a wheelie resulted in a score of 85%.  So what's with the tail settling?
       I came home and immediately did a weight and balance with all my camping crap still in the airplane.  I had full front fuel and 4 gallons in the aft tank.  Cargo crap was about 40 lbs.  I'm 260.  Were we over gross?  Yep, but the CG was still within limits by my calculations.  So, did the airspeed bleed off because the tail started down, or was it the other way around?  Is tail settling a characteristic or did I just witness the beginning of a stall close enough to the ground to sense the initial onset of a stall?
       I've since installed a visual horizon on my windshield as a clue, instituted the practice of alternating wheelies and three pointers and have decided to load the bird lighter on long trips.  But I'm curious about the tail settling.  Anybody experienced this event?  And why would the airspeed decay as you close in on ground effect, although I don't think I was in ground effect when the tail settled.  I was actually higher than 10 feet, maybe 20 or so.  
       Something to ponder on the cold October evenings.  Looking forward to some good input.

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