[f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven has new informationfor us!

Sun Aug 5 10:02:09 PDT 2007

Please do and ask them what the book says versus what is being done out in the 
field. 

Get smart fast and get back to Alaska! :)

Joe

On 5 Aug 2007 at 7:37, Gregg Horrell wrote:

> I'm in OK City at the Academy (again).....maybe I'll run it by the ATC staff 
> and see what they say.
> Gregg
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <joeaksa at attglobal.net>
> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 8:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven has new 
> informationfor us!
> 
> 
> > Roger,
> >
> > Correct and everyone I talk with, both current and retired FAA types say 
> > that its a "no
> > no" to have two jets or high powered aircraft on the runway at the same 
> > time.
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On 5 Aug 2007 at 10:03, roger anderson wrote:
> >
> >> I think this is just a misunderstanding regarding what types of aircraft 
> >> may
> >> occupy the runway at the same time.  Only Cat I and II (as defined in the
> >> 7110.65, appendix A) can do so.  There is no provision for SRS if one of 
> >> the
> >> aircraft is a Cat III (basically jets).  Joe flys jets and was 
> >> questioning
> >> the issue reference that type of aircraft...I think.  roger
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Steven P. McNicoll" <roncachamp at earthlink.net>
> >> To: <joeaksa at attglobal.net>; <aeronca at westmont.edu>
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 8:27 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven has new
> >> informationfor us!
> >>
> >>
> >> > Joe,
> >> >
> >> > I am an active FAA ATC type.
> >> >
> >> > In an earlier message you requested information clarifying this issue. 
> >> > I
> >> > provided links to the FAA order that very clearly indicates two 
> >> > airplanes
> >> > ARE allowed on the same runway during landing.  I know you saw that
> >> > message
> >> > because it appears as quoted material in a query you directed to Roger
> >> > Anderson.  I suggest that you take time to examine that material 
> >> > yourself.
> >> > I also suggest you pass it on to your copilot.
> >> >
> >> > Steven P. McNicoll
> >> > De Pere, WI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: <joeaksa at attglobal.net>
> >> > To: "Steven P. McNicoll" <roncachamp at earthlink.net>;
> >> > <aeronca at westmont.edu>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 12:20 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven hasnew
> >> > informationfor
> >> > us!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Steven,
> >> >>
> >> >> Considering that my copilot right now is a retired FAA ATC type, and 
> >> >> he
> >> >> feels the
> >> >> same way that I do that two airplanes are NEVER allowed on the same
> >> >> runway
> >> >> during takeoff or landing, especially when it involves jet aircraft,
> >> >> believe that we have
> >> >> the "ATC procedures" part covered on this end.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would not consider "Usenet pilot forums" one of the best sources of
> >> >> information.
> >> >> The vast majority of the people there are recreational pilots who do 
> >> >> not
> >> >> fly for a living.
> >> >>
> >> >> My copilot has a fairly solid understanding of FAA ATC procedures,
> >> >> learned
> >> >> after 30
> >> >> years of working in the system. Are you an FAA ATC type, active or
> >> >> retired?
> >> >>
> >> >> Joe A
> >> >>
> >> >> On 4 Aug 2007 at 12:04, Steven  P. McNicoll wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Joe,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Over ten years of active participation in several Usenet pilot forums
> >> >>> have
> >> >>> revealed two absolute truths to me:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 1.)  Many pilots believe they have a solid understanding of ATC
> >> >>> procedures.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 2.)  Few pilots actually have a solid understanding of ATC 
> >> >>> procedures.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Steven P. McNicoll
> >> >>> De Pere, WI
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >>> From: <joeaksa at attglobal.net>
> >> >>> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 4:19 AM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven hasnew
> >> >>> informationfor
> >> >>> us!
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > Mike,
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Anticipated clearances is a whole different kettle of fish. I 
> >> >>> > landed
> >> >>> > in
> >> >>> > Paris last night
> >> >>> > and was cleared to land a long way out. There were 6 aircraft in 
> >> >>> > front
> >> >>> > of
> >> >>> > me for the
> >> >>> > approach but every one of them was clear of the active runway, the 
> >> >>> > one
> >> >>> > we
> >> >>> > all
> >> >>> > landed on, before I actually touched down. The night before in 
> >> >>> > London
> >> >>> > I
> >> >>> > was 3rd in
> >> >>> > line for the landing when cleared but again, the runway was clear
> >> >>> > before I
> >> >>> > touched
> >> >>> > down.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Steven evidently has some information that I hope he shares with us
> >> >>> > that
> >> >>> > shows that
> >> >>> > its legal to have two airplanes on the same active runway at the 
> >> >>> > same
> >> >>> > time,
> >> >>> > something that is not done anywhere in the world that I know of
> >> >>> > outside
> >> >>> > of
> >> >>> > military
> >> >>> > operations.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Considering that you are with TC, what is the TC view of more than 
> >> >>> > one
> >> >>> > airplane on
> >> >>> > the runway at one time? I landed in Dorval (Montreal) 10 days ago 
> >> >>> > and
> >> >>> > was
> >> >>> > asked to
> >> >>> > expedite clearing the runway so that the airplane behind me could
> >> >>> > land.
> >> >>> > It
> >> >>> > sure
> >> >>> > seems that in Canada they want only one airplane on the runway at a
> >> >>> > time.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Thx,
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Joe A
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On 3 Aug 2007 at 21:48, Spence, Mike wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >> And hence, have we come full circle here - anticipated 
> >> >>> >> clearances...
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >> Clearing an aircraft to land on a runway that has one clearing, 
> >> >>> >> one
> >> >>> >> over
> >> >>> >> the
> >> >>> >> numbers, one on a mile final, and I'm "cleared to land" with the
> >> >>> >> traffic
> >> >>> >> on final in
> >> >>> >> sight, as I turn the base. Now everyone has been "Cleared to 
> >> >>> >> Land".
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Mike S.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> ________________________________
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu on behalf of 
> >> >>> >> joeaksa at attglobal.net
> >> >>> >> Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 3:47 PM
> >> >>> >> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
> >> >>> >> Cc: roncachamp at earthlink.net
> >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Was Cleared to Land now Steven has new
> >> >>> >> informationfor us!
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Steven,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> In 37 years of flying and over 15,000 hours in airplanes this is 
> >> >>> >> the
> >> >>> >> first time I have
> >> >>> >> ever had anyone tell me that its ok to land with another airplane
> >> >>> >> still
> >> >>> >> on the runway.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Military applications aside, from what Roger posted earlier as 
> >> >>> >> well
> >> >>> >> as
> >> >>> >> my
> >> >>> >> experience
> >> >>> >> around the world, its illegal for the control tower staff to 
> >> >>> >> approve
> >> >>> >> a
> >> >>> >> landing of a jet
> >> >>> >> airplane on a runway with another airplane still on the same 
> >> >>> >> runway.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Can you pls give us clarification on where you get this 
> >> >>> >> information
> >> >>> >> so
> >> >>> >> that we can
> >> >>> >> pass it along to the control towers. I fly planes for a living and
> >> >>> >> did
> >> >>> >> not know, nor have
> >> >>> >> ever had anyone clear me to land (in the civilian world that is) 
> >> >>> >> with
> >> >>> >> a
> >> >>> >> second airplane
> >> >>> >> on the runway. They must be missing something in the regulations 
> >> >>> >> that
> >> >>> >> you
> >> >>> >> need to
> >> >>> >> point out to them!
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Joe A
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On 3 Aug 2007 at 6:26, Steven  P. McNicoll wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> > If you have an aversion to landing while there is still another
> >> >>> >> > airplane on
> >> >>> >> > the runway, then you should avoid airports with control towers,
> >> >>> >> > period.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> 
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