[f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going onwiththef-AAfamily?)###
Fred Steadman
fstead at mac.com
Wed Aug 8 13:40:43 PDT 2007
I've never flown through the rotor, but did all but get called a liar
by folks on this list when I commented that gliders and tow planes
routinely fly through them. There are none to fly through in North
Texas.
On Aug 8, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Paul L. Safran wrote:
> SOP at release is glider turns right, towplane left.
> if glider turns before rope has ACTUALLY released
> towplane gets pointed toward the ground, glider pilot
> feels like he has a big sailfish on the line (stick) and
> proceeds to overfly towplane that is now "hanging" from the
> glider. As Fred said, hopefully "weak-link" fails & rope
> releases both. I've had 2 of those situations. I know I released
> one, probably had weak-link fail on the other. At 2000' agl not
> a big deal, on the runway or below 500' is what kills towpilots.
>
> Can also get rolled, literally, in the rotor of a wave. BTDT, glider
> didn't stay attached for long.
> ;-)
>
> Paul
>
> ******************************************************
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "E. O. Lake" <eolake at rogers.com>
> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going
> onwiththef-AAfamily?)###
>
>
>>>> The problem is (can be) sometimes the tow plane gets inverted ...
>>
>> Please tell me this is an extremely rare occurrence. What are the
>> odds and
>> the cause?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Fred Steadman
>> Sent: August 8, 2007 11:38 AM
>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on
>> withthef-AAfamily?)###
>>
>> The problem is (can be) sometimes the tow plane gets inverted and the
>> tension is now downward. Some operators actually install the
>> Schweitzer hook upside down (TSA used to do that). With the TOST
>> hook, it doesn't matter from which direction the tension comes.
>>
>> I never had one point me at the ground, but I have had a couple of
>> broken ropes from gliders turning away without having gotten a proper
>> release. It jerks you around pretty good(ly). Instructors on board
>> both times. As long as those ropes break before any damage is done
>> to
>> either airplane, that is a good thing.
>>
>> As far as a balloon take-off, I don't know what will save you. We
>> had
>> one at TSA a few years ago. The pilot at the time was a retired
>> airline pilot and possibly the most experienced tow pilot TSA had.
>> Still in ground effect, he managed to dump the rope in time to save
>> himself, but not the engine and prop. Anyone else might have been
>> killed. The man has not flown another tow from that day to this.
>>
>> There has been some talk of developing an automatic tow release which
>> would potentially react more quickly than a human pilot. I was a
>> strong supporter of a rule that the auto release would activate any
>> time the stick touched the back stop with full power in, until one day
>> my stick touched the back stop with full power in during a routine
>> take-off from the grass. It may still be a good rule even though
>> that
>> particular tow would have been aborted unnecessarily.
>>
>> Fred Steadman
>> Irving, Texas
>> 214 762 6376
>> fstead at mac.com
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 9:31 AM, Paul L. Safran wrote:
>>
>>> well Fred,
>>> actually had to check, but all three glider towhooks I looked at
>>> yesterday
>>> still open upward, ie..... added tension in a take-off balloon or
>>> turning
>>> before the rope releases at altitude.
>>> Scariest part of towing on the ground for sure, though having now
>>> lost
>>> 2
>>> ropes when the glider pointed me at the ground at altitude in the
>>> towplane,
>>> makes for a good story afterward.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Fred Steadman" <fstead at mac.com>
>>> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:59 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>> thef-AAfamily?)###
>>>
>>>
>>>> Glider pilots run a double risk if they lose sight of the tow plane.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to a possible collision, there is the possibility of
>>>> hanging the tow plane from the glider's nose. Any glider has
>>>> enough
>>>> wing power to win a tug of war with any tow plane's tail, so that if
>>>> the glider out climbs the tow plane the tow plane can end up
>>>> pointing
>>>> straight down. This is very harrowing, especially close to the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> With the old style Swietzer tow hooks it is possible to experience a
>>>> situation where neither of the aircraft can release from the tow
>>>> line.
>>>> In that case the glider ends up following the tow plane into the
>>>> ground. I don't think anybody uses those on the tow plane end
>>>> anymore.
>>>>
>>>> Fred Steadman
>>>> Irving, Texas
>>>> 214 762 6376
>>>> fstead at mac.com
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:37 PM, Jerry Eichenberger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike -
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't allow formation landings unless the pilots request the
>>>>> same.
>>>>> There's a huge difference between landing two airplanes 6,000 feet
>>>>> apart on
>>>>> the same runway, especially when they are relatively slow GA
>>>>> airplanes, and
>>>>> trying a formation landing with fighters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Formation work is difficult, and inherently dangerous, especially
>>>>> close to
>>>>> the ground where the margin for error approaches zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the cardinal rules about formation flying is that if one in
>>>>> trail of
>>>>> the leader or otherwise behind him, loses sight of the leader, get
>>>>> out
>>>>> of
>>>>> there right away. Break off, and re-join later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even glider pilots are taught that if they ever lose sight of the
>>>>> tow
>>>>> plane,
>>>>> pull the release NOW. Actually, flying a glider on tow is somewhat
>>>>> like
>>>>> formation flying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jerry E.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of Spence, Mike
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:21 PM
>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>>>> the
>>>>> f-AAfamily?)###
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of more than one on the runway at the same time...Have you
>>>>> seen the
>>>>> Mustang incident at OSH video?
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of Ian Harvie
>>>>> Sent: August 2, 2007 1:13 PM
>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>>>> the
>>>>> f-AA family?)###
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, I'll let Don answer that as I now days rarely fly into
>>>>> towered
>>>>> airports, however "cleared to land " was in common usage in South
>>>>> Africa
>>>>> when I flew there and it was not uncommon to have one on the runway
>>>>> in
>>>>> front although I think a phrase such as "continue your approach"
>>>>> might
>>>>> have been used in some circumstances, then "cleared to land" when
>>>>> the
>>>>> runway was clear.
>>>>> I do remember several times at air shows when it got busy, applying
>>>>> quite some brake with the tail still up in the Stinson when I was
>>>>> catching up on then guy in front. (This wasn't so difficult in the
>>>>> Stinson if you knew what you were doing)
>>>>> I do agree that with light aircraft there should be no problem with
>>>>> someone in front as you should always be ready to go round.
>>>>>
>>>>> Woke up, must be jet lag from arriving back, its 0300 in the
>>>>> morning
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>> Spence, Mike wrote:
>>>>>> List - We've just been discussing, here in the office, our newly
>>>>>> implemented, (by our ATS provider, Nav Canada), anticipated
>>>>>> "clearances
>>>>>> to land " both for VFR and IFR.
>>>>>> Up until this year in Canada, an aircraft on final would not be
>>>>>> "Cleared
>>>>>> To Land" by ATC, until the preceding aircraft had lifted off or
>>>>>> cleared
>>>>>> the runway after landing. The 5 most major airports in Canada have
>>>>>> implemented the use of anticipated clearances like the U.S. has
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> years. Any comments - pro or con?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And for our Australian neighbors...Someone mentioned that you
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> the phrase "Cleared To land". How is is it handled "Down Under" ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> *From:* aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]*On Behalf Of *Rafael
>>>>>> *Sent:* August 2, 2007 9:26 AM
>>>>>> *To:* aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [f-AA] ### What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>> family?###
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do they have magazines? I thught it was a rumor lol, so they
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> a different time continium and they can travel back and forth
>>>>>> between times...... wish I could do the same same lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Arecit at aol.com/* wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually- that sounds like a good iddee- turning the ole
>>>>>> clock
>>>>>> back a few years. Great idea....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nancie- down in swampville
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a message dated 8/1/2007 5:48:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight
>>>>>> Time,
>>>>>> Joe at Preston-Company.com writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I* think it was around that time when I received my
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> one. :>)
>>>>>> I know you are trying Brian, but you just make it so
>>>>>> easy
>>>>>> for us to yank
>>>>>> your chain....
>>>>>> JP
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of John
>>>>>> Baker
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:11 PM
>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu; Joe at Preston-Company.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>> family?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just yesterday I received Volume 13, #2, dated
>>>>>> "Spring,
>>>>>> 2000." Seems that
>>>>>> the NAA operates in an alternate reality where time is
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> schedule. :) But I can't complain - dues collection
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>> schedule. It was a nice article by the Poobah and
>>>>>> recounts
>>>>>> the story many
>>>>>> of us saw online back at the turn of the century.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B. www.hangar9aeroworks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Preston
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:54 PM
>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>> family?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When did that come out? I can't remember the last
>>>>>> time I
>>>>>> received one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>> Knemeyer
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:22 PM
>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu; jodydeb at earthlink.net
>>>>>> Subject: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA family?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Rodkey, Eric & Tacky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are on the front & back cover of the latest NAA
>>>>>> Magazine Plus a
>>>>>> great story of their flight to the 2006 Middletown,
>>>>>> Ohio
>>>>> fly-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mikek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/1/07, JODY WITTMEYER <jodydeb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> My baby brother just got his Lt. Col. 6 months ago for the
>>>>>> USMC. Now he is
>>>>>>> working for Sikorsky, flying their newest big bird.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JODY WITTMEYER
>>>>>> jodydeb at earthlink.net
>>>>>> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Cy Galley
>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> Sent: 8/1/2007 10:47:29 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fw: TKO NOTICE: A28 eBay Password Reset
>>>>>>> -planesellerFollowInstructions Immediately
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Congratulations! My daughter got her Lt Col in the
>>>>>> Airforce about 5 years
>>>>>>> ago. Had to go to England for the ceremony. Cost abit
>>>>>> but I wouldn't have
>>>>>>> missed it nor her retirement ceremony this spring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, These are the milestones in anyone's life. Things
>>>>>> that make great
>>>>>>> memories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Congratulations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cy Galley - Chair,
>>>>>>> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
>>>>>>> A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
>>>>>>> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
>>>>>>> EAA Sport Pilot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Tom Holmes
>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:14 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fw: TKO NOTICE: A28 eBay Password
>>>>> Reset -
>>>>>>> planesellerFollowInstructions Immediately
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Youngest is getting his Lt Col, USMC promotion and his
>>>>>> second bronze star.
>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Rodkey <poobahster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I must have missed this. What's the big ceremony, Tom?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/1/07, Tom Holmes <thomastholmes512 at sbcglobal.net >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Did you follow the "forgot your password?" route?? You
>>>>>> may have to call
>>>>>>> email) their help desk to sort it out.
>>>>>>> Tom, off to the big ceremony in a couple of minutes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> planeseller < steubers at theunion.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> The bad news is that I cannot access my account, it comes
>>>>>> up with an
>>>>>> invalid
>>>>>>> password. Now what coach?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------
>>>>>> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?
>>>>> ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
>>>>>> Aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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Fred Steadman
Irving, Texas
214 762 6376
fstead at mac.com
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