[f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going onwiththef-AAfamily?)###
Fred Steadman
fstead at mac.com
Wed Aug 8 14:09:57 PDT 2007
I guess by "routine" I meant, at the places where they do that, they do
it every chance they get.
On Aug 8, 2007, at 4:00 PM, Todd Pattist wrote:
> I've flown gliders on tow through rotors. I agree with Fred that
> it's fairly common, but the level of excitement that sometimes occurs
> prohibits me from referring to the practice as "routine."
> Todd
>
> Fred Steadman wrote:I've never flown through the rotor, but did all
> but get called a liar
>> by folks on this list when I commented that gliders and tow planes
>> routinely fly through them. There are none to fly through in North
>> Texas.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Paul L. Safran wrote:
>>
>>
>>> SOP at release is glider turns right, towplane left.
>>> if glider turns before rope has ACTUALLY released
>>> towplane gets pointed toward the ground, glider pilot
>>> feels like he has a big sailfish on the line (stick) and
>>> proceeds to overfly towplane that is now "hanging" from the
>>> glider. As Fred said, hopefully "weak-link" fails & rope
>>> releases both. I've had 2 of those situations. I know I released
>>> one, probably had weak-link fail on the other. At 2000' agl not
>>> a big deal, on the runway or below 500' is what kills towpilots.
>>>
>>> Can also get rolled, literally, in the rotor of a wave. BTDT, glider
>>> didn't stay attached for long.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> ******************************************************
>>>
>>> .
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "E. O. Lake" <eolake at rogers.com>
>>> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going
>>> onwiththef-AAfamily?)###
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> The problem is (can be) sometimes the tow plane gets inverted ...
>>>>>>
>>>> Please tell me this is an extremely rare occurrence. What are the
>>>> odds and
>>>> the cause?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Fred Steadman
>>>> Sent: August 8, 2007 11:38 AM
>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on
>>>> withthef-AAfamily?)###
>>>>
>>>> The problem is (can be) sometimes the tow plane gets inverted and
>>>> the
>>>> tension is now downward. Some operators actually install the
>>>> Schweitzer hook upside down (TSA used to do that). With the TOST
>>>> hook, it doesn't matter from which direction the tension comes.
>>>>
>>>> I never had one point me at the ground, but I have had a couple of
>>>> broken ropes from gliders turning away without having gotten a
>>>> proper
>>>> release. It jerks you around pretty good(ly). Instructors on
>>>> board
>>>> both times. As long as those ropes break before any damage is done
>>>> to
>>>> either airplane, that is a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> As far as a balloon take-off, I don't know what will save you. We
>>>> had
>>>> one at TSA a few years ago. The pilot at the time was a retired
>>>> airline pilot and possibly the most experienced tow pilot TSA had.
>>>> Still in ground effect, he managed to dump the rope in time to save
>>>> himself, but not the engine and prop. Anyone else might have been
>>>> killed. The man has not flown another tow from that day to this.
>>>>
>>>> There has been some talk of developing an automatic tow release
>>>> which
>>>> would potentially react more quickly than a human pilot. I was a
>>>> strong supporter of a rule that the auto release would activate any
>>>> time the stick touched the back stop with full power in, until one
>>>> day
>>>> my stick touched the back stop with full power in during a routine
>>>> take-off from the grass. It may still be a good rule even though
>>>> that
>>>> particular tow would have been aborted unnecessarily.
>>>>
>>>> Fred Steadman
>>>> Irving, Texas
>>>> 214 762 6376
>>>> fstead at mac.com
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 9:31 AM, Paul L. Safran wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> well Fred,
>>>>> actually had to check, but all three glider towhooks I looked at
>>>>> yesterday
>>>>> still open upward, ie..... added tension in a take-off balloon or
>>>>> turning
>>>>> before the rope releases at altitude.
>>>>> Scariest part of towing on the ground for sure, though having now
>>>>> lost
>>>>> 2
>>>>> ropes when the glider pointed me at the ground at altitude in the
>>>>> towplane,
>>>>> makes for a good story afterward.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Fred Steadman" <fstead at mac.com>
>>>>> To: <aeronca at westmont.edu>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:59 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>>>> thef-AAfamily?)###
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Glider pilots run a double risk if they lose sight of the tow
>>>>>> plane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to a possible collision, there is the possibility of
>>>>>> hanging the tow plane from the glider's nose. Any glider has
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> wing power to win a tug of war with any tow plane's tail, so that
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> the glider out climbs the tow plane the tow plane can end up
>>>>>> pointing
>>>>>> straight down. This is very harrowing, especially close to the
>>>>>> ground.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the old style Swietzer tow hooks it is possible to
>>>>>> experience a
>>>>>> situation where neither of the aircraft can release from the tow
>>>>>> line.
>>>>>> In that case the glider ends up following the tow plane into the
>>>>>> ground. I don't think anybody uses those on the tow plane end
>>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Steadman
>>>>>> Irving, Texas
>>>>>> 214 762 6376
>>>>>> fstead at mac.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:37 PM, Jerry Eichenberger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't allow formation landings unless the pilots request the
>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>> There's a huge difference between landing two airplanes 6,000
>>>>>>> feet
>>>>>>> apart on
>>>>>>> the same runway, especially when they are relatively slow GA
>>>>>>> airplanes, and
>>>>>>> trying a formation landing with fighters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Formation work is difficult, and inherently dangerous, especially
>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>> the ground where the margin for error approaches zero.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the cardinal rules about formation flying is that if one
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> trail of
>>>>>>> the leader or otherwise behind him, loses sight of the leader,
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> there right away. Break off, and re-join later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even glider pilots are taught that if they ever lose sight of the
>>>>>>> tow
>>>>>>> plane,
>>>>>>> pull the release NOW. Actually, flying a glider on tow is
>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> formation flying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jerry E.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of Spence, Mike
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:21 PM
>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> f-AAfamily?)###
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Speaking of more than one on the runway at the same time...Have
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> seen the
>>>>>>> Mustang incident at OSH video?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of Ian Harvie
>>>>>>> Sent: August 2, 2007 1:13 PM
>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ### Cleared to Land (was What's going on with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> f-AA family?)###
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike, I'll let Don answer that as I now days rarely fly into
>>>>>>> towered
>>>>>>> airports, however "cleared to land " was in common usage in South
>>>>>>> Africa
>>>>>>> when I flew there and it was not uncommon to have one on the
>>>>>>> runway
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> front although I think a phrase such as "continue your approach"
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> have been used in some circumstances, then "cleared to land" when
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> runway was clear.
>>>>>>> I do remember several times at air shows when it got busy,
>>>>>>> applying
>>>>>>> quite some brake with the tail still up in the Stinson when I was
>>>>>>> catching up on then guy in front. (This wasn't so difficult in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Stinson if you knew what you were doing)
>>>>>>> I do agree that with light aircraft there should be no problem
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> someone in front as you should always be ready to go round.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Woke up, must be jet lag from arriving back, its 0300 in the
>>>>>>> morning
>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spence, Mike wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> List - We've just been discussing, here in the office, our newly
>>>>>>>> implemented, (by our ATS provider, Nav Canada), anticipated
>>>>>>>> "clearances
>>>>>>>> to land " both for VFR and IFR.
>>>>>>>> Up until this year in Canada, an aircraft on final would not be
>>>>>>>> "Cleared
>>>>>>>> To Land" by ATC, until the preceding aircraft had lifted off or
>>>>>>>> cleared
>>>>>>>> the runway after landing. The 5 most major airports in Canada
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> implemented the use of anticipated clearances like the U.S. has
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> years. Any comments - pro or con?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And for our Australian neighbors...Someone mentioned that you
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> the phrase "Cleared To land". How is is it handled "Down Under"
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> *From:* aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]*On Behalf Of *Rafael
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* August 2, 2007 9:26 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [f-AA] ### What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>>>> family?###
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do they have magazines? I thught it was a rumor lol, so they
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a different time continium and they can travel back and
>>>>>>>> forth
>>>>>>>> between times...... wish I could do the same same lol
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> */Arecit at aol.com/* wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually- that sounds like a good iddee- turning the ole
>>>>>>>> clock
>>>>>>>> back a few years. Great idea....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nancie- down in swampville
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a message dated 8/1/2007 5:48:34 P.M. Eastern
>>>>>>>> Daylight
>>>>>>>> Time,
>>>>>>>> Joe at Preston-Company.com writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I* think it was around that time when I received my
>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>> one. :>)
>>>>>>>> I know you are trying Brian, but you just make it so
>>>>>>>> easy
>>>>>>>> for us to yank
>>>>>>>> your chain....
>>>>>>>> JP
>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>> Baker
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:11 PM
>>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu; Joe at Preston-Company.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>>>> family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just yesterday I received Volume 13, #2, dated
>>>>>>>> "Spring,
>>>>>>>> 2000." Seems that
>>>>>>>> the NAA operates in an alternate reality where time
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> schedule. :) But I can't complain - dues collection
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>>>> schedule. It was a nice article by the Poobah and
>>>>>>>> recounts
>>>>>>>> the story many
>>>>>>>> of us saw online back at the turn of the century.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B. www.hangar9aeroworks.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Preston
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:54 PM
>>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>>>> family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When did that come out? I can't remember the last
>>>>>>>> time I
>>>>>>>> received one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> [mailto:aeronca-bounces at westmont.edu]On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Knemeyer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:22 PM
>>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu; jodydeb at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>> Subject: [f-AA] What's going on with the f-AA
>>>>>>>> family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Rodkey, Eric & Tacky
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are on the front & back cover of the latest NAA
>>>>>>>> Magazine Plus a
>>>>>>>> great story of their flight to the 2006 Middletown,
>>>>>>>> Ohio
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fly-in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mikek
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/1/07, JODY WITTMEYER <jodydeb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> My baby brother just got his Lt. Col. 6 months ago for the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> USMC. Now he is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> working for Sikorsky, flying their newest big bird.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JODY WITTMEYER
>>>>>>>> jodydeb at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: Cy Galley
>>>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>>> Sent: 8/1/2007 10:47:29 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fw: TKO NOTICE: A28 eBay Password Reset
>>>>>>>>> -planesellerFollowInstructions Immediately
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Congratulations! My daughter got her Lt Col in the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Airforce about 5 years
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ago. Had to go to England for the ceremony. Cost abit
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but I wouldn't have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> missed it nor her retirement ceremony this spring.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, These are the milestones in anyone's life. Things
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that make great
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> memories.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Congratulations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cy Galley - Chair,
>>>>>>>>> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
>>>>>>>>> A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
>>>>>>>>> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
>>>>>>>>> EAA Sport Pilot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: Tom Holmes
>>>>>>>>> To: aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:14 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fw: TKO NOTICE: A28 eBay Password
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reset -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> planesellerFollowInstructions Immediately
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Youngest is getting his Lt Col, USMC promotion and his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> second bronze star.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Rodkey <poobahster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I must have missed this. What's the big ceremony, Tom?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/1/07, Tom Holmes <thomastholmes512 at sbcglobal.net >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you follow the "forgot your password?" route?? You
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> may have to call
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> email) their help desk to sort it out.
>>>>>>>>> Tom, off to the big ceremony in a couple of minutes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> planeseller < steubers at theunion.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The bad news is that I cannot access my account, it comes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> up with an
>>>>>>>> invalid
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> password. Now what coach?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?
>>>>>>> ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
>>>>>>>> Aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
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>>>>>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
>>>>>> Aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Aeronca mailing list
>>>>> Aeronca at westmont.edu
>>>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Aeronca mailing list
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>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>> Fred Steadman
>> Irving, Texas
>> 214 762 6376
>> fstead at mac.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aeronca mailing list
>> Aeronca at westmont.edu
>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Aeronca mailing list
> Aeronca at westmont.edu
> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>
Fred Steadman
Irving, Texas
214 762 6376
fstead at mac.com
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